Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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Heorhij

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Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
I was just answering Katherine's question about the difference between homosexuality and "any kind of behavior, wired or acquired."
 

LizaSymonenko

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Heorhij said:
I think that's not so black and white. A few centuries ago, perhaps most Orthodox believers would say that if some weird person discovers that biological species evolve, that notion, as a one clashing with our beliefs, should be immediately rejected. While some "high-brow" theologians interpreted Genesis metaphorically, some 99.999% firmly believed that "things happened exactly the way the Bible says they did." Today, it's different. The Church does not campain against evolution, and a good number of priests, bishops, metropolitans openly say that we should not read Genesis literally. And I believe it's good that it is so. As for the miracles and especially the miracle of Christ two natures and His resurrection - that, I believe, is principally, philosophically outside of the realm of science and "progress." But a lot of other things are within it.
Heorhij,

First of all, I love you like a brother.  However, as a sister I must ask you why you find this one point of Orthodoxy so contentious?  You agree that marriage should be a monogamy, and therefore, you argue that premarital sex falls outside the realm of Orthodoxy because it's not monogamous, yet, homosexual marriage is okay, because the couple is monogamous.  Right?  Who says that premarital sex isn't monogamous?  I know a couple who have been "together" for over 10 years, yet, do not wish to marry.  It's not a religious thing with them.  She's simply seen too many messy divorces and she wants no part of it.  What's hers is hers, and his is his, and they live happily together.  I don't agree with their lifestyle and have urged them to get married....even offered to help with the arrangements....but, it's their life.

So, Orthodoxy would frown upon their current "union" and should accept a gay marriage.  How come?

In the eyes of the Church both are wrong.

Orthodoxy is NOT Politically Correct, and I hope it never will be.  The Church, it's morals, and ethics should not change with the times.  The Church is our "Noah's Ark" leading us over the troubled, secular, immoral, storm of life to salvation.  This is the one place we should know we can go and NOT be led astray.

As for Evolution.  Please, tell me you don't know a priest who agrees that mankind evolved from monkeys!  What nonsense!  If you mean "evolution" in the sense that if you crossbreed a short mare with a tall stallion and her offspring are tall....the tall offspring mate with tall horses, .... that the whole breed will become taller....than yes.  That is a fact.  If you mean that birds evolve to survive on a particular pine nut found on the island where they live...okay, that's true too....because that is the only source of food available.  Heck, I evolve into a vegetarian during Lent in order to survive on veggies alone....and then I morph back to a carnivore after Pascha!

However, I for one, do believe the story of Genesis.  I believe that God created Adam and Eve.  I do believe we are all brothers and sisters, not only in Christ, but, in the flesh, as we share the same parents.

Believe me, my heart breaks for the homosexuals in this world.  I don't believe all of them "chose" that lifestyle...although to be frank many do (it seems to be the fad these days).  It's tough.  It's also tough for those who are single in this world.  We've heard from a number of people on this Forum who wish to have someone to love them, and don't.  It's just as tough for these "straight" single people.

Oh well.  That's life.  A person can live without sex.  Nothing will happen to them.

What does bother me...are the people who are in pain constantly, who have cancer, who can't breath, who can't think for the pain they are feeling is so great, who truly suffer....who are scared for their lives.....who are hungry.....who are freezing, or dying of thirst......these things are more of an issue.  These are the things that we have all lost site of because we are all preoccupied with the pretty rainbow colors and parades.

These are the people who are truly suffering, and who's lives are truly miserable.

Please forgive me for my outburst.  I am just so tired of listening to all this talk about "rights".

OK....lunchbreak over.  Back to work!

;)


 

katherineofdixie

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Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
I don't know. But their behavior is certainly prohibited. So what's the difference?
 

ignatius

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Grace and Peace,

Does the Orthodox Church recognize the identification of human beings as 'homosexual'? I'm asking because I was taught that the Roman Church does not recognize such an identification as substantive. This is 'key' to any 'real' understanding of opposition to recognizing or not recognizing one's 'right to sodomy or any other sexual sin' as normative. If you recognize that homosexuality is a substantive human identity like being male or female etc then it does look to be that you are 'denying' another human being the 'right to relations' and it does appear unfair. I think the goal should be to let whoever you are discussing this with understand that we are 'all' simply human beings with appetites. Some of these appetites can be unhealthy and thus unacceptable to feed. Sodomy and other sexual acts with individuals of the same gender fall into this unacceptable category.

Is this not Orthodox teaching?
 

PeterTheAleut

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Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
 

Papist

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PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
Gay marriage is allowed in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches? I know that the answer is "no".
 

LizaSymonenko

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PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
Actually you would be forbidden to marry an "unbaptized" individual, even if he/she were of the opposite sex.  For example, correct me if I am wrong, an Orthodox man would not be allowed to marry a Muslim woman.  Doesn't the other partner need to be baptized?

 

PeterTheAleut

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Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
Gay marriage is allowed in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches? I know that the answer is "no".
You may be right, but that's not the point.  The point is that you're making dogmatic statements that cannot but represent your RC tradition, and this on a discussion board devoted to discussion of Orthodox Christian faith.  If you wish to say that gay marriage is prohibited by your church, that's fine, but don't presume to speak for the Orthodox Church here.
 

Papist

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PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
Gay marriage is allowed in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches? I know that the answer is "no".
You may be right, but that's not the point.  The point is that you're making dogmatic statements that cannot but represent your RC tradition, and this on a discussion board devoted to discussion of Orthodox Christian faith.  If you wish to say that gay marriage is prohibited by your church, that's fine, but don't presume to speak for the Orthodox Church here.
But the Easatern Orthodox Church does not allow gay marriage. You are really confusing me with your nonsense. But I'll you ridiculous little game if you want. The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage. So does this one Byzantine-based Church in the east that I can't name becaue for some reason, stating the clear teachings of this Church are not allowed by one of its members, Peter the Aleut.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
Gay marriage is allowed in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches? I know that the answer is "no".
You may be right, but that's not the point.  The point is that you're making dogmatic statements that cannot but represent your RC tradition, and this on a discussion board devoted to discussion of Orthodox Christian faith.  If you wish to say that gay marriage is prohibited by your church, that's fine, but don't presume to speak for the Orthodox Church here.
But the Easatern Orthodox Church does not allow gay marriage. You are really confusing me with your nonsense.
That's because you're focusing your side debate with me on the wrong issue.  I'm not talking about what the Orthodox Church permits or forbids.  I'm talking about the dogmatic tradition you represent in this discussion.
 

Papist

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PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
Gay marriage is allowed in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches? I know that the answer is "no".
You may be right, but that's not the point.  The point is that you're making dogmatic statements that cannot but represent your RC tradition, and this on a discussion board devoted to discussion of Orthodox Christian faith.  If you wish to say that gay marriage is prohibited by your church, that's fine, but don't presume to speak for the Orthodox Church here.
But the Easatern Orthodox Church does not allow gay marriage. You are really confusing me with your nonsense.
That's because you're focusing your side debate with me on the wrong issue.  I'm not talking about what the Orthodox Church permits or forbids.  I'm talking about the dogmatic tradition you represent in this discussion.
Read my modified quote and you'll understand how I feel about your silliness.
 

Heorhij

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^^Pani Lizo, thank you. I do understand and appreciate what you are saying.

Yet, if arguments like "they suffer" only meet counter-arguments like "they aren't the only ones who suffer" - then, maybe, let's look at it from the other side, positive sde?

I know one person, Andrei K., who is a regular correspondent of the Ukrainian web forum "Maidan." He is gay. He says (like many other homosexuals with whom I have communicated) that he has always been that way, since early childhood. And he tried to live a "normal life," dated girls, even tried to have heterosexual sex, which was a nightmare kind of experience for him as well as for the girl whom he dated. And then, suddenly, he met a man and fell in love with him. Now, he says that it's the only one, unique person in the whole world whom he really loves (in every way - spitirually as well as physically), and that he never is, and never will be, interested in any other "mates," 'partners" or whatever. They live together, they love each other, they have a physical relationship as well as a tremendously strong intellectual, emotional, and spiritual union. Andrei says that his entire life changed forever since the moment he met his love and understood that it is his love.

Andrei is a very gentle and God-searching soul. He is not an atheist by any stretch. He is very knowledgeable in the Church history, doctrine, activities, missions, etc. Currently he is not a practicing Orthodox, but he may become one some day, I hope. Must he give up the love of his life to be received by the Church? Obviously, yes. And... why?

I still think that the spirit of love will some happy day prevail over the letter of Scripture and Tradition and people like Andrei will be happily married to whom they love, and we will all partake in the one Eucharist, praising God.
 

Heorhij

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katherineofdixie said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
I don't know. But their behavior is certainly prohibited. So what's the difference?
Is it?
 

PeterTheAleut

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Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
Gay marriage is allowed in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches? I know that the answer is "no".
You may be right, but that's not the point.  The point is that you're making dogmatic statements that cannot but represent your RC tradition, and this on a discussion board devoted to discussion of Orthodox Christian faith.  If you wish to say that gay marriage is prohibited by your church, that's fine, but don't presume to speak for the Orthodox Church here.
But the Easatern Orthodox Church does not allow gay marriage. You are really confusing me with your nonsense. But I'll you ridiculous little game if you want. The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage. So does this one Byzantine-based Church in the east that I can't name becaue for some reason, stating the clear teachings of this Church are not allowed by one of its members, Peter the Aleut.
You still don't have a clue what I'm saying, as evidenced by the above misstatement of my words, so I'll put it to you bluntly.  You're a Roman Catholic posting on a board devoted to discussion of matters pertaining to Orthodox Christian faith.  Until such time that I actually move this thread, you would do well to not make dogmatic statements here.
 

Ortho_cat

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What's the difference between how RC's and EO's view homosexual marriage?
 

PeterTheAleut

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Ortho_cat said:
What's the difference between how RC's and EO's view homosexual marriage?
Probably no difference at all.  But that's not the point of my issue with Papist. ;)
 

Ortho_cat

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Heorhij said:
I still think that the spirit of love will some happy day prevail over the letter of Scripture and Tradition
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."


 

ialmisry

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LizaSymonenko said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
Heorhij said:
katherineofdixie said:
One thing I've always wondered is why homosexuality? What makes it different from any other behavior (wired or acquired)?
I don't know, but people with other behavior, wired or acquired, are not subject to prohibition to marry. Or am I wrong? Are two fetishists or paraphiliacs of the opposite gender prohoboted from marrying in the Orthodox Church?
No one is prohibited from marrying a person of the opposite sex. Everyone is prohibited from marrying a person of the same sex. There is no unfair standard here.
Maybe by your church, but I think we're talking about the authority of our Church here, bud.
Actually you would be forbidden to marry an "unbaptized" individual, even if he/she were of the opposite sex.  For example, correct me if I am wrong, an Orthodox man would not be allowed to marry a Muslim woman.  Doesn't the other partner need to be baptized?
Yes, in my old cathedral parish, the priest "married" someone to a Jew (when he was told to kiss the Cross, the scene I am told would in and of itself make the case why the unbaptized cannot be married).  Half the parish left and told the bishop they would not return until the issue was dealt with.  The priest was told he would be defrocked if he tried it again.

On the happy side, the children and their mother came regularly to Church.
 

Heorhij

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ignatius said:
Grace and Peace,

Does the Orthodox Church recognize the identification of human beings as 'homosexual'? I'm asking because I was taught that the Roman Church does not recognize such an identification as substantive. This is 'key' to any 'real' understanding of opposition to recognizing or not recognizing one's 'right to sodomy or any other sexual sin' as normative. If you recognize that homosexuality is a substantive human identity like being male or female etc then it does look to be that you are 'denying' another human being the 'right to relations' and it does appear unfair. I think the goal should be to let whoever you are discussing this with understand that we are 'all' simply human beings with appetites. Some of these appetites can be unhealthy and thus unacceptable to feed. Sodomy and other sexual acts with individuals of the same gender fall into this unacceptable category.

Is this not Orthodox teaching?
Dear Ignatius, but have you tried to ask these questions while communicating with real people who are homosexual? What do THEY say when you tell them that they just have wanton and forbidden "appetites," like some alcoholic or erothomaniac? And in everything else, they do not differ from you?
 

Heorhij

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Ortho_cat said:
Heorhij said:
I still think that the spirit of love will some happy day prevail over the letter of Scripture and Tradition
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Yes.
 
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